<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font size="+1">I resent my response in case people may be
interested.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">tzvetomir</font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-forward-container">
<div class="moz-text-plain" wrap="true" style="font-family:
-moz-fixed; font-size: 14px;" lang="x-unicode">
<pre wrap="">Your message has been rejected, probably because you are not
subscribed to the mailing list and the list's policy is to prohibit
non-members from posting to it. If you think that your messages are
being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fieldtrip-owner@science.ru.nl">fieldtrip-owner@science.ru.nl</a>.
</pre>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"><legend
class="mimeAttachmentHeaderName">ForwardedMessage.eml</legend></fieldset>
<table class="header-part1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
width="100%" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>
<div class="headerdisplayname" style="display:inline;">Subject:
</div>
Re: [FieldTrip] One-sample cluster based permutation
t-test ERP data</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>
<div class="headerdisplayname" style="display:inline;">From:
</div>
Tzvetomir Tzvetanov <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tzvetomir.tzvetanov@gmail.com"><tzvetomir.tzvetanov@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>
<div class="headerdisplayname" style="display:inline;">Date:
</div>
18/08/21 13:14</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table class="header-part2" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
width="100%" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>
<div class="headerdisplayname" style="display:inline;">To:
</div>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fieldtrip@science.ru.nl">fieldtrip@science.ru.nl</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:alex.sel@psy.ox.ac.uk">alex.sel@psy.ox.ac.uk</a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:politzerahless@gmail.com">politzerahless@gmail.com</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode">
<p><font size="+1">Dear Alex, Dear Stephen, Dear Eelke, Dear
all,<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">we have worked on such a case, that is trying
to test a single sample.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">We made an arxiv publication, after rejection
from J. of Neuroscience Methods with a similar argument
presented by Dr. Eric Maris at that time too (a correct open
review).</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">We decided to make an arxiv publication and
leave the community decide if our approach is worth. (<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1801.09372">https://arxiv.org/abs/1801.09372</a>)<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">For the moment I do think single sample test
is available. It can be traced (a very late discovery from
my side) also to the non-linear dynamics literature where it
is called surrogate data analysis/statistics. I found a good
description is the book from Kantz or his more recent
reviews (non-linear time series analysis).<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Hope this gives some clues for people </font><font
size="+1"><font size="+1">wondering </font>about this open
question in our field.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Best regards,</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Tzvetomir<br>
</font></p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18/08/21 09:53, Eelke Spaak
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABPNLUqySsFJn=4NqbzaNM+ozK8JD8a5QG-jmf-4j980z2ML_Q@mail.gmail.com">
<pre wrap="">Dear Eric and all,
Following up on your point (1), I've wondered in the past about the
one-sample randomization test (let's call it that to avoid the name
"permutation"). Would it not be fair to say that the null hypothesis
here is that the expected value of our data equals zero?
Cheers,
Eelke
On 19 August 2018 at 23:57, Maris, E.G.G. (Eric) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:e.maris@donders.ru.nl"><e.maris@donders.ru.nl></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear FT-ers,
The one-sample statistical test continues to be an issue that raises
confusion. Although it is impossible to explain here the statistical
background in all detail, the following points are relevant for empirical
neuroscientists that apply cluster-based permutation tests to their data:
1. A permutation test can only be used for comparing two or more
experimental conditions. Thus, Stephen’s proposal is not a permutation test.
However, it does produce a p-value, and by comparing it with some nominal
value (e.g., 0.05) it can be used to take a decision. The problem with this
procedure is that it is unclear what is the null hypothesis to which this
decision pertains. Here lies the important difference with a permutation
test for the difference between two experimental conditions: tthe null
hypothesis involves that the biological data in the two conditions are
generated by the same probability distribution.
2. Comparing the activation (post-stimulus) with the baseline (pre-stimulus)
period can be performed using a permutation test, regardless whether the raw
data were transformed into a time-frequency representation or not. The
reason why some people think it cannot be used on the raw data (i.e., for
testing effects on the time-locked average) is that the baseline period is
typically used to normalize the activation period (by removing the DC
component). With this normalisation, the null hypothesis pertains to two
sets of biological data of which one (the activation data) is already a
function of the other (as a result of the normalisation procedure). If you
want to use the actvsblT statfun, It makes more sense to perform a high-pass
filter on the raw data rather than normalising the activation data using the
baseline data.
best,
Eric Maris
1. Re: One-sample cluster based permutation t-test ERP data
(Stephen Politzer-Ahles)
From: Stephen Politzer-Ahles <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:politzerahless@gmail.com"><politzerahless@gmail.com></a>
Subject: Re: [FieldTrip] One-sample cluster based permutation t-test ERP
data
Date: 19 August 2018 at 10:36:09 CEST
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fieldtrip@science.ru.nl"><fieldtrip@science.ru.nl></a>
I'm not sure if there is or not, but in the past I have managed this by
creating an ERP dataset that is all zeroes, and then comparing my real
dataset to it with a cluster test. Since a one-sample test is the same as a
paired samples test between something and zero (e.g., comparing X and Y via
t-test is the same as comparing {X-Y} to zero), this should give the same
result.
---
Stephen Politzer-Ahles
The Hong Kong Polytechnic University
Department of Chinese and Bilingual Studies
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mypolyuweb.hk/%7Esjpolit/">http://www.mypolyuweb.hk/~sjpolit/</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:01:29 +0000
From: Alex Sel <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:alex.sel@psy.ox.ac.uk"><alex.sel@psy.ox.ac.uk></a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fieldtrip@science.ru.nl">"fieldtrip@science.ru.nl"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fieldtrip@science.ru.nl"><fieldtrip@science.ru.nl></a>
Subject: [FieldTrip] One-sample cluster based permutation t-test ERP
data
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:47637187-A1A5-4040-8917-F04C501E65CF@psy.ox.ac.uk"><47637187-A1A5-4040-8917-F04C501E65CF@psy.ox.ac.uk></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Dear list,
I wonder if there has been a function developed to do a one-sample cluster
based permutation t-test ERP data. I am aware this is possible to do with
actvsblT for time-frequency data.
There is a forum thread from 2012 saying that this wasn’t implemented. But
I wonder if there is anyone there who might have resolve this issue and
wouldn’t mind sharing the solution.
Any help would be appreciated.
Best wishes,
Alex Sel, PhD
Associate Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
Wellcome Centre for Integrative Neuroimaging
Department of Experimental Psychology
University of Oxford
The Tinsley Building
OX1 3SR
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
fieldtrip mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip">https://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a>
_______________________________________________
fieldtrip mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip">https://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002202">https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002202</a>
Eric Maris | Donders Institute for Brain, Cognition, and Behaviour & Faculty
of Social Sciences | Radboud University | PO Box 9104, 6500 HE Nijmegen |
(024) 3612651 | <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.ru.nl">www.ru.nl</a>
This message (and any attachments) is intended solely for the addressee(s)
and may contain confidential information. If you are not the addressee, do
not copy this message (and any attachments), forward or share this message
with third parties. You are requested to notify the sender immediately and
delete this message.
_______________________________________________
fieldtrip mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip">https://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002202">https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002202</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
fieldtrip mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip">https://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002202">https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002202</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
__________________________________________________
Tzvetomir Tzvetanov, PhD
Associate Professor/Senior Researcher
School of Computer & Information,
Hefei University of Technology
Hefei, Anhui 230009, P.R.China
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tzvetan@hfut.edu.cn">tzvetan@hfut.edu.cn</a>
</pre>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>