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<div>Dear Eelke and others,</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>"<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Would it not be fair to say that the null hypothesis </span><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">here is that the expected value of our data equals zero?</span>”</div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">This question can be answered by “Yes” if one can produce a proof of the false alarm rate control of this “one-sample </span>randomisation test” under the null hypothesis that you mention. I
welcome the results of all successful attempts to this challenge. You do not have to produce the proof yourself, a reference to a descent peer-reviewed publication (e.g., a statistics journal) is also OK.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>best,</div>
<div>Eric</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; margin: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" class=""><b class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Eelke
Spaak <<a href="mailto:e.spaak@donders.ru.nl" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">e.spaak@donders.ru.nl</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; margin: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re:
[FieldTrip] One-sample cluster based permutation t-test ERP data</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; margin: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" class=""><b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">21
August 2018 at 09:53:14 CEST<br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; margin: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">FieldTrip
discussion list <<a href="mailto:fieldtrip@science.ru.nl" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">fieldtrip@science.ru.nl</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Dear
Eric and all,</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Following
up on your point (1), I've wondered in the past about the</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">one-sample
randomization test (let's call it that to avoid the name</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">"permutation").
Would it not be fair to say that the null hypothesis</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">here
is that the expected value of our data equals zero?</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Cheers,</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Eelke</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">On
19 August 2018 at 23:57, Maris, E.G.G. (Eric) <</span><a href="mailto:e.maris@donders.ru.nl" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">e.maris@donders.ru.nl</a><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">>
wrote:</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
Dear FT-ers,<br class="">
<br class="">
The one-sample statistical test continues to be an issue that raises<br class="">
confusion. Although it is impossible to explain here the statistical<br class="">
background in all detail, the following points are relevant for empirical<br class="">
neuroscientists that apply cluster-based permutation tests to their data:<br class="">
<br class="">
1. A permutation test can only be used for comparing two or more<br class="">
experimental conditions. Thus, Stephen’s proposal is not a permutation test.<br class="">
However, it does produce a p-value, and by comparing it with some nominal<br class="">
value (e.g., 0.05) it can be used to take a decision. The problem with this<br class="">
procedure is that it is unclear what is the null hypothesis to which this<br class="">
decision pertains. Here lies the important difference with a permutation<br class="">
test for the difference between two experimental conditions: tthe null<br class="">
hypothesis involves that the biological data in the two conditions are<br class="">
generated by the same probability distribution.<br class="">
<br class="">
2. Comparing the activation (post-stimulus) with the baseline (pre-stimulus)<br class="">
period can be performed using a permutation test, regardless whether the raw<br class="">
data were transformed into a time-frequency representation or not. The<br class="">
reason why some people think it cannot be used on the raw data (i.e., for<br class="">
testing effects on the time-locked average) is that the baseline period is<br class="">
typically used to normalize the activation period (by removing the DC<br class="">
component). With this normalisation, the null hypothesis pertains to two<br class="">
sets of biological data of which one (the activation data) is already a<br class="">
function of the other (as a result of the normalisation procedure). If you<br class="">
want to use the actvsblT statfun, It makes more sense to perform a high-pass<br class="">
filter on the raw data rather than normalising the activation data using the<br class="">
baseline data.<br class="">
<br class="">
best,<br class="">
Eric Maris<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
1. Re: One-sample cluster based permutation t-test ERP data<br class="">
(Stephen Politzer-Ahles)<br class="">
<br class="">
From: Stephen Politzer-Ahles <<a href="mailto:politzerahless@gmail.com" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">politzerahless@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
Subject: Re: [FieldTrip] One-sample cluster based permutation t-test ERP<br class="">
data<br class="">
Date: 19 August 2018 at 10:36:09 CEST<br class="">
To: <<a href="mailto:fieldtrip@science.ru.nl" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">fieldtrip@science.ru.nl</a>><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
I'm not sure if there is or not, but in the past I have managed this by<br class="">
creating an ERP dataset that is all zeroes, and then comparing my real<br class="">
dataset to it with a cluster test. Since a one-sample test is the same as a<br class="">
paired samples test between something and zero (e.g., comparing X and Y via<br class="">
t-test is the same as comparing {X-Y} to zero), this should give the same<br class="">
result.<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
---<br class="">
Stephen Politzer-Ahles<br class="">
The Hong Kong Polytechnic University<br class="">
Department of Chinese and Bilingual Studies<br class="">
<a href="http://www.mypolyuweb.hk/~sjpolit/" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.mypolyuweb.hk/~sjpolit/</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br class="">
<br class="">
Message: 1<br class="">
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:01:29 +0000<br class="">
From: Alex Sel <<a href="mailto:alex.sel@psy.ox.ac.uk" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">alex.sel@psy.ox.ac.uk</a>><br class="">
To: "<a href="mailto:fieldtrip@science.ru.nl" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">fieldtrip@science.ru.nl</a>" <<a href="mailto:fieldtrip@science.ru.nl" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">fieldtrip@science.ru.nl</a>><br class="">
Subject: [FieldTrip] One-sample cluster based permutation t-test ERP<br class="">
data<br class="">
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:47637187-A1A5-4040-8917-F04C501E65CF@psy.ox.ac.uk" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">47637187-A1A5-4040-8917-F04C501E65CF@psy.ox.ac.uk</a>><br class="">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br class="">
<br class="">
Dear list,<br class="">
<br class="">
I wonder if there has been a function developed to do a one-sample cluster<br class="">
based permutation t-test ERP data. I am aware this is possible to do with<br class="">
actvsblT for time-frequency data.<br class="">
<br class="">
There is a forum thread from 2012 saying that this wasn’t implemented. But<br class="">
I wonder if there is anyone there who might have resolve this issue and<br class="">
wouldn’t mind sharing the solution.<br class="">
<br class="">
Any help would be appreciated.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best wishes,<br class="">
<br class="">
Alex Sel, PhD<br class="">
Associate Fellow of the Higher Education Academy<br class="">
Wellcome Centre for Integrative Neuroimaging<br class="">
Department of Experimental Psychology<br class="">
University of Oxford<br class="">
The Tinsley Building<br class="">
OX1 3SR<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
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<font face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size: 11px;" class="">Eric Maris | Donders Institute for Brain, Cognition, and Behaviour & Faculty of Social Sciences | Radboud University | PO Box 9104, 6500 HE Nijmegen | (024) 3612651 | <a href="http://www.ru.nl" class="">www.ru.nl</a><br class="">
</span><em style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-size: 15px;" class=""><br class="">
</em></font></div>
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