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Hi there,<br>
I am resending my question below to the Fieldtrip discussion. Many
thanks in advance! <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2013 20:10, Eric Maris
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1970236920.3023303.1381518611198.JavaMail.root@draco.zimbra.ru.nl"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi May,
Could you post your question on thr Fieldtrip discussion list? In that way, many more people can participate in the discussion. Moreover, the discussion will be archived, allowing people with the same question to inform themselves.
Best,
Eric
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
I wish to seek some insights into non-parametric statistical testing
in the MEG data analysis I am planning to do at the source level.<br>
<br>
For the most part, I have an appreciation of the permutation
strategy (concept of random partitioning) described in Maris &
Oostenveld 2007, which is implemented in fieldtrip. <br>
<br>
I have however a concern regarding trial number differences between
subject group for permutation statistics.<br>
The data I am looking at after preprocessing/artefact removal etc.
looks roughly as follows: <br>
<br>
2 subject groups: Controls (C) and Patients (P).<br>
For a particular experimental condition (A), on average, subjects
within each group have the following number of trials:<br>
condA_Ntrials_C ~= 100<br>
condA_Ntrials_P ~= 80<br>
<br>
I plan to perform a 2-step statistics-test to test for differences
between C and P groups on a particular experimental condition.<br>
Using a 1st level within subject t-test (or active-vs-baseline test)
on baseline vs active period for each group, deriving
subject-specific t-stats which are to be subsequently used in a 2nd
level test between subject group contrast, using nonparametric test.<br>
<br>
<font color="#3333ff">Question 1) Does it matter if the average
trials per subject in each group is different? Should I try to
equalize the trial numbers by e.g. random removal of some trials
before computing any statistics? Is this advisable?</font><br>
<br>
<font color="#3333ff">Question 2) Minimum trials required for
source-level significance?</font><br>
The supplementary info. accompanying the 2007 paper illustrated some
minimum trial numbers required for obtaining a significant effect at
the sensor-level analysis, given some threshold (e.g. cluster>250
sensor-time pairs).<br>
Has anyone systematically shown what is the minimum number of trials
required to obtain significant clusters/fdr stats at the
source-level analysis? <br>
If not, is there a sensible way to find out? (presumably involving
some form of bootstrapping and simulation?)<br>
<br>
This relates to another issue I have with regards to
'within-subjects' comparison for 2 experimental conditions A and B
where there are average trial number differences both within and
between subject groups: <br>
condA_Ntrials_C ~= 100 condB_Ntrials_C ~= 60 (min. =35)<br>
condA_Ntrials_P ~= 80 condB_Ntrials_P ~= 50 (min. =35)<br>
<br>
A similar concern of uneven trials arises if say I wish to perform a
within subjects comparison between the experimental conditions. <br>
<br>
In general, Q: <font color="#3333ff">Would the intended 2-step
statistical test (as described above) be appropriate, OR would it
best to control for 'equal' number of trials for all subjects and
conditions of interest?</font><br>
<br>
I would really appreciate it if someone could kindly comment or
offer advise where appropriate.<br>
<br>
Thank you very much in advance for your time. <br>
<br>
Yours sincerely,<br>
May<br>
<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
class="SpellE"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#595959;
mso-themecolor:text1;mso-themetint:166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;
mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;
mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:"lumm=65000
lumo=35000"">Heng-Ru</span></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#595959;mso-themecolor:text1;
mso-themetint:166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:
text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:
"lumm=65000
lumo=35000""> <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">May</i>
Tan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#595959;mso-themecolor:text1;
mso-themetint:166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:
text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:
"lumm=65000
lumo=35000"">Institute of Neuroscience and Psychology
(INP) </span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:#595959;mso-themecolor:text1;mso-themetint:
166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:
text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:
"lumm=65000
lumo=35000"">▫ Centre for Cognitive Neuroimaging (<span
class="SpellE">CCNi</span>)</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;
color:#595959;mso-themecolor:text1;mso-themetint:166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:
#595959;mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:
100.0%;mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:"lumm=65000
lumo=35000""> </span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:#595959;mso-themecolor:text1;mso-themetint:
166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:
text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:
"lumm=65000
lumo=35000"">▫ </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;
line-height:115%;color:#595959;mso-themecolor:text1;mso-themetint:166;
mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:text1;
mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:
"lumm=65000
lumo=35000"">University of Glasgow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:#595959;mso-themecolor:text1;mso-themetint:
166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:
text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:
"lumm=65000
lumo=35000"">58 <span class="SpellE">Hillhead</span>
Street, Glasgow G12 8QB</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#595959;
mso-themecolor:text1;mso-themetint:166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;
mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;
mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:"lumm=65000
lumo=35000""> </span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:#595959;mso-themecolor:text1;mso-themetint:
166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:
text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:
"lumm=65000
lumo=35000"">▫ +44 (0)141-330-5090</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;color:#595959;mso-themecolor:text1;
mso-themetint:166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:
text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:
"lumm=65000
lumo=35000""> </span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:#595959;
mso-themecolor:text1;mso-themetint:166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#595959;
mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;
mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:"lumm=65000
lumo=35000"">▫ <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Heng-RuMay.Tan@glasgow.ac.uk">Heng-RuMay.Tan@glasgow.ac.uk</a></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:
115%;color:#595959;mso-themecolor:text1;mso-themetint:166;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:
#595959;mso-style-textfill-fill-themecolor:text1;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:
100.0%;mso-style-textfill-fill-colortransforms:"lumm=65000
lumo=35000""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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