<html><head></head><body bgcolor='#FFFFFF' style='font-size:10pt;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;'>Hi Gregor,<br/><br/>in principle the first level statistics that determine cluster membership (and thereby cluster shapes etc.) can also vary from one set of permutations to the next, esp. on the borders of a cluster (this is why it is typically said that the localization of a cluster is not as trustworthy as its existence). Other resaons for differences are differing number of permutations - did you set everything the same?<br/><br/>This said there might well be another problem - I hope the cluster people can have a look into it.<br/><br/>Best ,<br/>Michael<br/><br/><br/><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid blue; margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; padding-top: 5px;"><hr/><b>Von:</b> "Gregor Volberg" <Gregor.Volberg@psychologie.uni-regensburg.de><br/><b>Gesendet:</b> Nov 2, 2011 6:34:43 PM<br/><b>An:</b> fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl<br/><b>Betreff:</b> [FieldTrip] Wrong clustering of electrodes in newer FT versions?<br/><br/><div style="margin: 4px 4px 1px; line-height: normal; font-variant: normal;"><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">Dear fieldtrip community,</font></p><br/><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">I just encountered an unexpected behavior of FT that I would like to share with the list. It is that the cluster permutation test formed incorrect clusters from a given set of significant electrodes in newer FT versions (ft-20111012; I also tried with ft-20111028). </font></p><br/><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">For example, when using an old ft version (ft-20100810) and freqstatistics I get a negative cluster with 17 contiguous electrodes. With the newer ft version, using the same data and the same cfg, three significant electrodes that are spatially contiguous to the other significant electrodes are not included in the cluster. Also, three electrodes that are spatially seperated and are actually part of the first cluster are grouped into a separate cluster. I attached a picture with the respective clusterplots where differences are marked with red arrows.</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2"> </font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">I am aware that the permutation p-value for a given cluster can be different in two separate analyses, but the grouping of significant electrodes into clusters should always be the same, am i right? I double-checked the cfg.neighbours, after conversion to new 'struct' style, and they were identical in the "old ft" and "new ft" analysis. Also, the stat.stat field and the stat.cfg.clustercritval were the same for both analyses. Thus, the same neighbourhood relations and the same significant electrodes should be used for grouping. Yet I get different results... </font></p><br/><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">I am almost sure that this is trivial, but I could not yet replicate my old results with new FT and this makes me nervous. Has someone made a similar experience? Or do newer versions of ft use some further information besides cfg.neighbours for clustering, somewhere in the *cfg.previuous perhaps, that I am not aware of? Any comments are highly welcome.</font></p><br/><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">Best regards,</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">Gregor</font></p><br/><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg = [];</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.neighbours = neighbours;</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.minnbchan=1;</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.avgoverfreq = 'yes';</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.avgovertime = 'yes';</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.method = 'montecarlo';</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.correctm = 'cluster';</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.statistic = 'depsamplesT';</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.tail = 0;</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.alpha = 0.05;</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.clusteralpha = 0.05;</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.numrandomization = 1000;</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.design = [[1:14 1:14]; [zeros(1,14)+1 zeros(1,14)+2]];</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.uvar = 1;</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.ivar = 2;</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.latency = [2.24 2.53];</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">cfg.frequency = [17 21];%</font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-top: 0pt;"><font face="Dialog" size="2">stat = ft_freqstatistics(cfg, DC, TC);</font></p><br/><font face="Dialog" style="font-size: 10pt;">--<br/>Dr. rer. nat. Gregor Volberg <gregor.volberg@psychologie.uni-regensburg.de> ( mailto:gregor.volberg@psychologie.uni-regensburg.de )<br/>University of Regensburg<br/>Institute for Experimental Psychology<br/>93040 Regensburg, Germany<br/>Tel: +49 941 943 3862<br/>Fax: +49 941 943 3233<br/><a href="http://www.psychologie.uni-regensburg.de/Greenlee/team/volberg/volberg.html
">http://www.psychologie.uni-regensburg.de/Greenlee/team/volberg/volberg.html </a></font><br/><br/> </div></blockquote></body></html>