<font><font><font><font><font><p class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: verdana, sans-serif; font-size: small; "><span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Constantia;color:#5F5F5F">Dear Yuval and discussion group,</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: verdana, sans-serif; font-size: small; "><span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Constantia;color:#5F5F5F"><br></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<font class="Apple-style-span" color="#5f5f5f" face="Constantia"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">it seems to me that what you are proposing is getting close to what proposed by the hybrid approach of regica described here: </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#5f5f5f" face="Constantia"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#5f5f5f" face="Constantia"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: Optima, Segoe, 'Segoe UI', Candara, Calibri, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 22px; "><i><span style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; ">Manousos A. Klados, Christos Papadelis, Christoph Braun, Panagiotis D. Bamidis, REG-ICA: A hybrid methodology combining Blind Source Separation and regression techniques for the rejection of ocular artifacts, Biomedical Signal Processing and Control, In Press, Corrected Proof, Available online 16 March 2011, ISSN 1746-8094, DOI: 10.1016/j.bspc.2011.02.001</span><span style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; ">.</span></i></span></font></p>
</font></font></font>
<div><font><font><br></font></font></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(95, 95, 95); font-family: Constantia; font-size: 14px; ">They suggest to selectively run regression based AR only on those components which correlate with EOG signals. This makes sense to me and I have been trying to experiment that on some old data, although with no clear conclusions yet. It may be worth a try for Odelia: Anybody out there with some insights for this - or maybe a similar - approach? </span></font></font><div>
<font><font><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#5f5f5f" face="Constantia"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></font></font></div><div><font><font><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#5f5f5f" face="Constantia"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Cheers,</span></font></font></font></div>
<div><font><font><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#5f5f5f" face="Constantia"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></font></font></div><div><font><font><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#5f5f5f" face="Constantia"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Mahesh<br clear="all">
</span></font></font></font><div style="text-align:right"><span style="font-family:verdana, sans-serif;font-size:x-small;color:rgb(153, 153, 153)"><br></span></div><div style="text-align:right"><span style="font-family:verdana, sans-serif;font-size:x-small"><font color="#C0C0C0"><br>
</font></span></div><div style="text-align:right"><span style="font-family:verdana, sans-serif;font-size:x-small"><font color="#C0C0C0"><br></font></span></div><div style="text-align:right"><span style="border-collapse:collapse"><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial, sans-serif">
<font><span style="font-size:x-small"><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999">Mahesh M. Casiraghi</font></span></font></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:x-small"><font face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999">PhD candidate - Cognitive Sciences</font></span></div>
<div><font size="1" face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999">Roberto Dell'Acqua Lab, University of Padova</font></div><div><font size="1" face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999">Pierre Jolicoeur Lab, Univesité de Montréal</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(192, 192, 192)"><font size="1" face="verdana, sans-serif"><a href="mailto:mahesh.casiraghi@umontreal.ca" target="_blank">mahesh.casiraghi@umontreal.ca</a></font></div></span></div><div style="text-align:right">
<font size="1" face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#C0C0C0"><br></font></div><div style="text-align:right"><font size="1" face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999">I have the conviction that when Physiology will be far enough advanced, the poet, the philosopher, and the physiologist will all understand each other.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:right"><font size="1" face="verdana, sans-serif" color="#999999">Claude Bernard</font></div><div style="text-align:right"><font color="#CCCCCC" face="constantia, 'hoefler text', 'palatino linotype', serif" size="1"><span style="border-collapse:collapse;line-height:24px"><br>
</span></font></div><br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Yuval Harpaz <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:yuvharpaz@gmail.com">yuvharpaz@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear discussion group</div>Did anybody consider smoothing or filtering the component trace before rejecting it?<br>it seems that the added noise to no-blink trials is in a frequency higher than that typical to blinks. what if we evaluate the component weight, creating a trace for the eyeblink component for every trial, then bandpass filter the blink trace , say 0.1-25Hz, and only then remove the component from the data?<div>


yuval</div><div><br></div><div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_quote">On 27 May 2011 06:16, Joseph Dien <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jdien07@mac.com" target="_blank">jdien07@mac.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Stefan, just to be clear, I don't think any of us were saying not to use ICA to correct blinks.  David was just saying that there are potential concerns when one only applies the ICA to the blink trials rather than to all the trials.  I myself use EEGlab's infomax implementation in the automatic eyeblink correction tool of my EP Toolkit (<a href="http://sourceforge.net/projects/erppcatoolkit/" target="_blank">http://sourceforge.net/projects/erppcatoolkit/</a>).</div>


<div><br></div><div>Now that said, I should add a little more nuance to my response.  One of the things I observed (or rather, that Tim Curran pointed out to me) is that when you apply ICA to remove eyeblink artifacts in this manner, it can actually substantially increase the noise level in the data, so for the trials without eyeblinks it can have a considerable cost.  So in order to balance the cost/benefit ratio, what I did was to include a trial by trial criterion that the putative eyeblink factors would only be removed if doing so reduced the overall variance of the trial.  This approach does still have some potential for causing the concerns that David raises but not as much as only applying the ICA to blink trials since it does end up getting applied to non-blink trials too.  This does mean that one should be cautious about any apparent effects in the artifact corrected data that are centered around the eyes (that have a blink topography) but that goes without saying in any case.  So anyway, I agree, it's not perfect but seems to be the best available option.</div>


<div><br></div><div>Cheers!</div><div><br></div><div>Joe</div><div><div></div><div><br><div><div>On May 24, 2011, at 3:11 AM, Stefan Debener wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
    Hi Odelia,<br>
    <br>
    I have a slightly different opinion here. It is certainly true that
    any filter has the tendency to distort data (with distortion I mean
    that data consists of a mixture of some wanted, true signal and some
    unwanted signal, and that the removal of the unwanted part of the
    signal is neither complete nor specific). In our lab we regularly
    use ICA for artefact removal (and more), and the benefit/gain is
    clearly are much larger than the distortion. In fact there are a
    number of examples out showing that currently only ICA (or related
    tools) can recover the study of (a substantial fraction of the
    wanted) EEG signal (but again, it is NOT a perfect tool at all), in
    particular in cases where other means of SNR enhancement don't work
    well (averaging, spectral analysis). I am happy to provide
    references if you are interested...<br>
    <br>
    For the evaluation of outcome it would be reasonable to not evaluate
    the ERP alone, as this could be misleading. Better evaluate the
    sensitivity and specificity of an eye blink attentuation approach on
    the single trial (and single subject) level, this will give you good
    insight. And it is worth keeping in mind that the preprocessing of
    the data (among other issues, like the quality of the recording and
    so on) largely determines the quality of the output (for some
    introduction you may look up chapter 3.1 in Ullsperger &
    Debener, 2010, Simultaneous EEG and FMRI, Oxford University Press).
    Just by a different preprocessing ICA output could vary between crap
    and excellent unmixing. Thus a poor ICA eye blink attenuation would
    make me a bit suspicious...<br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    Stefan<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Am 5/24/11 4:00 AM, schrieb Alexander J. Shackman:
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      And for a related perspective, see <br>
      <br>
      <span><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black">McMenamin</span></span><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black">, B.
        W., <b>Shackman, A. J.</b>, <span>Greischar</span>,
        L. L. & Davidson, R. J. (2011). <span>Electromyogenic</span>
        artifacts and electroencephalographic inferences revisited, <span><b><i>Neuroimage</i></b></span><i>, 54</i>, 4-9. <br>
        <br>
        <a href="http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/%7Eshackman/mcmenamin_shackman_ni2011.pdf" target="_blank">http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/~shackman/mcmenamin_shackman_ni2011.pdf</a><br>
        <br>
      </span><br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Joseph
        Dien <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jdien07@mac.com" target="_blank">jdien07@mac.com</a>></span>
        wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div style="word-wrap:break-word">
            <div>I agree with David's reasoning.  You may find the
              following article to be of help as well in understanding
              the issues involved:</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div style="margin:0px">Dien, J., Khoe, W., &
                Mangun, G. R. (2007). Evaluation of PCA and ICA of
                simulated ERPs: Promax versus Infomax rotations. <i>Human
                  Brain Mapping</i>, <span style="font:13px 'Lucida Grande'">28</span><span style="font:12px 'Lucida Grande'">(</span><span style="font:13px 'Lucida Grande'">8</span>), <span style="font:13px 'Lucida Grande'">742-763</span>.</div>



            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Cheers!</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Joe</div>
            <br>
            <div>
              <div>On May 23, 2011, at 11:57 AM, David Groppe wrote:</div>
              <br>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div>Hi Odelia,<br>
                    When you use ICA (or any other spatial filter) to
                  correct for EEG<br>
                  artifacts, you're going to distort your data some by
                  removing true EEG<br>
                  activity in addition to the artifact (for an
                  explanation, see:<br>
                  <a href="http://www.cogsci.ucsd.edu/%7Edgroppe/PUBLICATIONS/GroppeCSO2008.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cogsci.ucsd.edu/%7Edgroppe/PUBLICATIONS/GroppeCSO2008.pdf</a>).<br>
                  So to minimize distortion, it would be better not to
                  apply ICA<br>
                  artifact correction to artifact-free data.  However,
                  if the frequency<br>
                  of the artifact differs across experimental
                  conditions, it could<br>
                  confound your analysis.  For example, I suspect people
                  blink more<br>
                  often to targets in an oddball experiment than
                  standards.  Thus if you<br>
                  apply ICA only to blinky trials, you could find a
                  difference between<br>
                  the EEG response to standards and targets that simply
                  reflects the<br>
                  fact ICA removed more EEG activity in the target
                  trials (i.e., it<br>
                  wouldn't reflect a true difference in neural
                  processing).<br>
                       hope this helps,<br>
                          -David<br>
                  <br>
                  On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 1:44 AM, odelia nakar <<a href="mailto:odidodi@hotmail.com" target="_blank">odidodi@hotmail.com</a>>
                  wrote:<br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">Hi all,<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">I'm troubled by the fact that
                    when I use ICA for blinks\eyes movements<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    removal, I remove the relevant components also from
                    trials that do not<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">contain blinks\eyes movements.
                    In order to avoid this bias we thought to<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    combine the data before ICA ("data" structure) with
                    the data after ICA<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">("dataica" structure), only in
                    specific trials, as follows:<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">datall=dataica;<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">datall.trial=data.trial;<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">datall.time=data.time;<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    blinks=[2 4 5 8 bla bla 156];<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">for ind=1:length(blinks)<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">    
                    datall.trial{1,blinks(ind)}=dataica.trial{1,blinks(ind)};<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    end<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">To my first question: I just
                    wanted to check that there is no problem with<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">that, or any reason not to use
                    it.<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">Another issue- I use motor
                    learning task, and I'm trying to understand what<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">happens through the process,
                    in terms of power-frequency changes through the<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">process. How would you
                    recommend that I'd use the ft_freqanalysis function?<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">What method to use (or what do
                    I need to consider when choosing the method<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">field)?<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">Thanks a lot,<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    Odelia.<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">fieldtrip mailing list<br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <a href="mailto:fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl" target="_blank">fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl</a><br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip" target="_blank">http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a><br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  -- <br>
                  David Groppe, Ph.D.<br>
                  Postdoctoral Researcher<br>
                  Kutaslab<br>
                  Dept. of Cognitive Science<br>
                  University of California, San Diego<br>
                  <a href="http://www.cogsci.ucsd.edu/%7Edgroppe/" target="_blank">http://www.cogsci.ucsd.edu/~dgroppe/</a><br>
                  <br>
                  _______________________________________________<br>
                  fieldtrip mailing list<br>
                  <a href="mailto:fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl" target="_blank">fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl</a><br>
                  <a href="http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip" target="_blank">http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a><br>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <br>
            <div>
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                                                    <div>Joseph Dien</div>
                                                    <div>E-mail: <a href="mailto:jdien07@mac.com" target="_blank">jdien07@mac.com</a></div>
                                                    <div>Phone: <a href="tel:301-226-8848" value="+13012268848" target="_blank">301-226-8848</a></div>
                                                    <div>Fax: <a href="tel:301-226-8811" value="+13012268811" target="_blank">301-226-8811</a></div>
                                                    <div><a href="http://homepage.mac.com/jdien07/" target="_blank">http://homepage.mac.com/jdien07/</a></div>
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          <br>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          fieldtrip mailing list<br>
          <a href="mailto:fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl" target="_blank">fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl</a><br>
          <a href="http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip" target="_blank">http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a><br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <br clear="all">
      <br>
      -- <br>
      Alexander J. Shackman, Ph.D.<br>
      Wisconsin Psychiatric Institute & Clinics and<br>
      Department of Psychology<br>
      University of Wisconsin-Madison<br>
      1202 West Johnson Street<br>
      Madison, Wisconsin 53706<br>
      <br>
      Telephone: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28608%29%20358-5025" value="+16083585025" target="_blank">+1 (608) 358-5025</a><br>
      Fax: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28608%29%20265-2875" value="+16082652875" target="_blank">+1 (608) 265-2875</a><br>
      Email: <a href="mailto:shackman@wisc.edu" target="_blank">shackman@wisc.edu</a><br>
      <a href="http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/%7Eshackman" target="_blank">http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/~shackman</a><br>
      <pre><fieldset></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
fieldtrip mailing list
<a href="mailto:fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl" target="_blank">fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl</a>
<a href="http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip" target="_blank">http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a></pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre cols="72">-- 
Prof. Dr. Stefan Debener
Neuropsychology Lab
Department of Psychology
University of Oldenburg
D-26111 Oldenburg
Germany

Office: A7 0-038
Phone: <a href="tel:%2B49-441-798-4271" value="+494417984271" target="_blank">+49-441-798-4271</a>
Fax:   <a href="tel:%2B49-441-798-5522" value="+494417985522" target="_blank">+49-441-798-5522</a>
Email: <a href="mailto:stefan.debener@uni-oldenburg.de" target="_blank">stefan.debener@uni-oldenburg.de</a>
</pre>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br>fieldtrip mailing list<br><a href="mailto:fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl" target="_blank">fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl</a><br><a href="http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip" target="_blank">http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a></blockquote>


</div><br><div>
<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Courier;font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Courier;font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">


<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Courier;font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">


<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Courier;font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">


<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Courier;font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">


<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Courier;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">


<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Courier;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">


<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Courier;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">


<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Courier;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">


<div><div><div><div><div><br></div></div></div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><br></div></span><br></span><br>


</div>
<br></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
fieldtrip mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl" target="_blank">fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl</a><br>
<a href="http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip" target="_blank">http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br></div></div><div dir="ltr">
Y.Harpaz<br>

<br>a link to the BIU MEG lab:<br><a href="http://faculty.biu.ac.il/%7Egoldsa/index.html" target="_blank">http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~goldsa/index.html</a><div><div><br></div><div><b>"Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big 
mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said 
that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no one should ever 
have left the oceans". <i>Douglas Adams</i><br></b></div></div><div style="padding:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px;overflow:hidden;word-wrap:break-word;color:black;font-size:10px;text-align:left;line-height:130%">


</div></div><br>
</div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
fieldtrip mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl">fieldtrip@donders.ru.nl</a><br>
<a href="http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip" target="_blank">http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/fieldtrip</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div>