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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thank you all for your
answer. I perfectly understand what you wrote.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Unfortunately early
effect I believe in is what only our group is found therefore we could not use
the former study and take the electrode and latency from them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I also know the way how I
can represent our data using the conventional t-test analysis.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I just want to use here
the clusterrandomization analysis for more logical and tense description of the
results.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My question is does the
usage of clusterrandomization on the 2 epochs separately make sense here. If
you think that the conventional t-test is more suitable here, I’ll stand on
it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Olga.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
FieldTrip discussion list [mailto:FIELDTRIP@NIC.SURFNET.NL] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Eric Maris<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 22, 2008
5:43 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> FIELDTRIP@NIC.SURFNET.NL<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [FIELDTRIP] Fwd: RE:
clusterrandomization for 2 epochs separately</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Bookman Old Style"><span
lang=NL style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'>Dear
Nic,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Bookman Old Style"><span
lang=NL style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Bookman Old Style"><span
lang=NL style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>I have a quick answer
for you, and would be please to heard people's comment on it. </span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=NL style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>If
you had a priori reason to belive something would happen for these electrodes
and time-window, you don't need cluster analysis at all. All the solutions to
the multiple-comparison problem are to be used in exploratory situation, when
you don't know what to expect. If you had specific hypothesis, don't be shy:
test them directy with a T-Test on the average voltage for a pre-determined
time-window. <br>
<br>
Think about it, if you did expect these effects to be there, you could had
create a montage with only one or two electrodes, and the multiple-comparison
problem would not apply at all.<font color=blue><span style='color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=blue
face="Bookman Old Style"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'>Your understanding makes me happy! I
couldn’t have formulated it any better.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=blue
face="Bookman Old Style"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><st1:PersonName
ProductID="Eric Maris" w:st="on"><font size=3 color=blue
face="Bookman Old Style"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'>Eric Maris</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
color=blue face="Bookman Old Style"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Bookman Old Style";
color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=blue
face="Bookman Old Style"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=blue
face="Bookman Old Style"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=blue
face="Bookman Old Style"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=blue
face="Bookman Old Style"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=blue
face="Bookman Old Style"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=blue
face="Bookman Old Style"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Bookman Old Style";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
Hope this help,<br>
<br>
Nic<br>
<br>
************************************<br>
Nicolas Robitaille, candidat Ph.D<br>
Département de Psychologie<br>
Université de Montréal<br>
C.P. 6128, succursale Centre-ville<br>
Montréal, Québec H3C 3J7<br>
Tel.: 514-343-6111 x2631<br>
Fax: 514-343-5787<br>
************************************<br>
<br>
<br>
> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:10:01 +0100<br>
> From: olga@GRAPHICMIND.INFO<br>
> Subject: [FIELDTRIP] Fwd: RE: clusterrandomization for 2 epochs separately<br>
> To: FIELDTRIP@NIC.SURFNET.NL<br>
> <br>
> > Dear Eric, <br>
> > I would like to consult with you about some our ERP data and<br>
> > application of the clusterrandomization to it. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=NL style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>> > <br>
> > I am writing now the article about ERP signs of visual change<br>
> > detection. <br>
> > <br>
> > We have ERP to the "deviant" and "standard"
stimuli sampling rate<br>
> > 512 Hz, 64 channels (Biosemi), 12 subjects. <br>
> > <br>
> > If we use the paired-wise t-test to compare the ERPs' amplitudes in<br>
> > response to standard and deviant stimuli separately for each<br>
> > electrode and time point (and plot it see the picture at the end of<br>
> > the letter) we can see 2 (4) time regions of differences. But<br>
> > application of clusterrandomization analysis to these data (latency<br>
> > 0-500 ms) reveal only late cluster as significant, the early cluster<br>
> > is marginally significant (p=0.1). But I really believe in this early<br>
> > effect (120-160 ms), it is very important for our paper. When I run<br>
> > the clusterrandomization analysis on the narrowed epoch (0-300 ms) I<br>
> > got the early cluster significant. But the problem than that I loose<br>
> > the late effect, which is also worth mentioning in the paper. <br>
> > <br>
> > Therefore, I would like you opinion about the possibility to use the<br>
> > clusterrandomization analysis separately on the 2 epochs of interest,<br>
> > let say first 250 ms post-stimulus (0-250 ms) and next (250-500 ms). <br>
> > <br>
> > In this case there would be two significant clusters... <br>
> > Best Regards, <br>
> > <br>
> > Olga Sysoeva <br>
> > P.S. <br>
> > <br>
> > I also used different parameters for clusterrandomization (ndis,<br>
> > nchannels) but this does not change the results much. <br>
> > P.P.S. <br>
> > <br>
> > Additional material <br>
> > The paired-wise t-test was used to compare the ERPs' amplitudes in<br>
> > response to standard and deviant stimuli separately for each<br>
> > electrode and time point. <br>
> > <br>
> > The standard and deviant ERPs comparison reveals 2(4) intervals of<br>
> > significant differences: <br>
> > <br>
> > Fig.1. At this weird J picture we see the boxes of significant<br>
> > differences between standard and deviant ERPs for each time point (x<br>
> > axis) and electrode (y axis). <br>
> > Olga Sysoeva, PhD<br>
> > Institute of Higher Nervous <br>
> > Activity and Neurophysiology<br>
> > Russian Academy of Sciences<br>
> > 5a Butlerova str.<br>
> > Moscow 117485<br>
> > RUSSIA<br>
> > tel.: (7-095)-3347011, <br>
> > fax:(7-095)-338-85-00. <br>
> > <br>
> > Links:<br>
> > ------<br>
> > [2] http://www.ru.nl/master/cns/<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> ----------------------------------<br>
> The aim of this list is to facilitate the discussion between users of the
FieldTrip toolbox, to share experiences and to discuss new ideas for MEG and
EEG analysis. See also http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/fieldtrip.html and
http://www.ru.nl/fcdonders/fieldtrip.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p>----------------------------------</p>
<p>The aim of this list is to facilitate the discussion between users of the FieldTrip toolbox, to share experiences and to discuss new ideas for MEG and EEG analysis.</p>
<p> http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/fieldtrip.html</p>
<p> http://www.ru.nl/fcdonders/fieldtrip/</p>
<p>----------------------------------</p>
<p>The aim of this list is to facilitate the discussion between users of the FieldTrip toolbox, to share experiences and to discuss new ideas for MEG and EEG analysis.</p>
<p> http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/fieldtrip.html</p>
<p> http://www.ru.nl/fcdonders/fieldtrip/</p>
<p>----------------------------------</p>
<p>The aim of this list is to facilitate the discussion between users of the FieldTrip toolbox, to share experiences and to discuss new ideas for MEG and EEG analysis.</p>
<p> http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/fieldtrip.html</p>
<p> http://www.ru.nl/fcdonders/fieldtrip/</p>