<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD><TITLE>Re: [clean-list] Rebranding Clean</TITLE>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Well, if you google ("Clean" +"functional programming") OR "Concurrent Clean" you get 77.000 hits as opposed to <STRONG>1.150.000</STRONG> when I google <FONT face="Times New Roman">("Clean" +"programming language") OR "Concurrent Clean"</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2>So I find even 4 times as many hits with the same query. Anyway, the latter query could catch quite a lot of false positives. For instance, I have read articles about Java where Java was called a clean programming language.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2>Regards Erik Zuurbier</FONT></DIV>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>Van:</B> clean-list-bounces@science.ru.nl namens Benjamin L. Russell<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> wo 6-2-2008 11:33<BR><B>Aan:</B> alex; clean-list@science.ru.nl<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> Re: [clean-list] Rebranding Clean<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
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<P><FONT size=2>Trivial though it may seem, I think that confusion<BR>over the name "Clean" vs. "Concurrent Clean" is indeed<BR>part of the reason for the lack of spreading of the<BR>language.<BR><BR>For instance, recently, I came across a number of<BR>Japanese Web pages on the language, which unanimously<BR>referred to "Concurrent Clean." One of them, entitled<BR>"Introducing Concurrent Clean" when translated from<BR>Japanese, at<BR><A href="http://www.geocities.jp/lethevert/clean/index.html">http://www.geocities.jp/lethevert/clean/index.html</A>, as<BR>of October 16, 2005 (when the page was last updated),<BR> compared the number of Google hits for "Concurrent<BR>Clean" (5,920) vs. "OCaml" (681,000), "Haskell"<BR>(2,440,000), and "Java" (143,000,000), and concluded<BR>that "Concurrent Clean" had strangely few hits when<BR>compared to the other languages.<BR><BR>I think that that number was probably about one-tenth<BR>of the true total number of Concurrent Clean<BR>("Clean?")-related sites. To do a comparison, I just<BR>ran two Google searches, as follows:<BR><BR>"Concurrent Clean":<BR>36,700 hits<BR><BR>("Clean" +"programming language") OR "Concurrent<BR>Clean":<BR>358,000 hits<BR><BR>Fuzziness over the name apparently causes at least<BR>some foreign users unfamiliar with Google search<BR>techniques to lose about 90% of Concurrent Clean<BR>("Clean?")-related hits.<BR><BR>It is more tedious to need to type something similar<BR>to "("Clean" +"programming language") OR "Concurrent<BR>Clean"" instead of just "Concurrent Clean" (or<BR>"Clean") every time I want to do a Google search.<BR>Most of my information I dig up through Google. At<BR>least most Japanese users also use Google for the same<BR>purpose, and most of them only know how to type one<BR>word or phrase into the search engine.<BR><BR>It would also help if Concurrent Clean ("Clean?") had<BR>a REPL, but unfortunately, the folks at Software<BR>Research Technology Group apparently seem uninterested<BR>in this idea. PLT Scheme and GHC both have a REPL,<BR>which is incredibly fun to use and aids learning; why<BR>can't this language (I had to use this phrase to avoid<BR>repeating two names again) have one?<BR><BR>Benjamin L. Russell<BR><BR>--- alex <maskif@yahoo.com.au> wrote:<BR><BR>><BR>> --- Pieter Koopman <pieter@cs.ru.nl> wrote:<BR>><BR>> > Hi Alex,<BR>> ><BR>> > the name Clean was chosen long before google was<BR>> > invented and dominated<BR>> > the world.<BR>><BR>> I certainly appreciate that.<BR>><BR>> > Using the search term "concurrent clean", the home<BR>> > page is the first<BR>> > link found by google. The same holds for "clean<BR>> > functional programming".<BR>><BR>> But I already know where clean's homepage is. I have<BR>> no idea if anyone else (outside academia) is<BR>> seriously<BR>> using clean.<BR>><BR>> > I think adding a few search hints for google is<BR>> more<BR>> > effective than a<BR>> > new name.<BR>><BR>> Then anyone that publishes info on Clean needs to<BR>> qualify it.<BR>><BR>> > Thanks for bringing this up anyway,<BR>><BR>> No problem. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, it's<BR>> just unfortunate that Clean goes for the most part<BR>> unnoticed.<BR>><BR>> I think it's a case of simple marketing. Presumably<BR>> you are operating as a business if you are offering<BR>> commercial licenses. As a business, I don't think<BR>> it's<BR>> constructive to get sentimental about the image. My<BR>> guess is that any company in your position would<BR>> rebrand, revamp the website, and get as many people<BR>> using "the language formerly known as Clean" as<BR>> possible.<BR>><BR>> Cheers, Alex<BR>><BR>> > Pieter Koopman<BR>> ><BR>> > alex wrote:<BR>> > > I am finally going to pickup Clean. From what I<BR>> > have<BR>> > > read it seems pretty cool.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > I have to wonder though why it is relatively<BR>> > obscure<BR>> > > compared to the other FPLs, especially<BR>> considering<BR>> > its<BR>> > > (apparent) strengths.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > I can guess I am not the only one that has<BR>> noticed<BR>> > > that the difference is cultural. In addition to<BR>> > the<BR>> > > lack of third-party documentation, information<BR>> on<BR>> > > Clean is almost impossible to search for.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > For instance, "Haskell XML" puts me in the<BR>> > ballpark,<BR>> > > while "Clean 'programming language' XML" gives<BR>> me<BR>> > > nothing useful. It will be hard to build any<BR>> kind<BR>> > of<BR>> > > (global) community while this is the case.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Are there any plans to rebrand Clean to be more<BR>> > search<BR>> > > friendly?<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Cheers, Alex<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Get the name you always wanted with the<BR>> new<BR>> > y7mail email address.<BR>> > > www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > _______________________________________________<BR>> > > clean-list mailing list<BR>> > > clean-list@science.ru.nl<BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>><BR><A href="http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/clean-list">http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/clean-list</A><BR>> > > <BR>> ><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Get the name you always wanted with the new<BR>> y7mail email address.<BR>> www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail<BR>><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> clean-list mailing list<BR>> clean-list@science.ru.nl<BR>><BR><A href="http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/clean-list">http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/clean-list</A><BR>><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>clean-list mailing list<BR>clean-list@science.ru.nl<BR><A href="http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/clean-list">http://mailman.science.ru.nl/mailman/listinfo/clean-list</A><BR></FONT></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>